ATP has requested this section be closed

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ATP has requested this section be closed

Postby Steve G » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:21 am

Well it seems our run of tournament entries on this site may soon come to an end. :( Can't say we haven't had a nice long go of it. :HeadBang:

The ATP has requested that this section of the forum be shut down. What they are saying is the entry lists are not public until released by the tournaments.

I know this is one of the most popular sections on the forums. Are the individual tournament sites sufficient these days for entry info? Any thoughts, suggestions?
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Re: ATP has requested this section be closed

Postby Patrik77 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:07 pm

This is by far the most important and used section on the forum. This is information that NO tournament site updates regulary or even updates at all. Entry list can be found sometimes but often after a while, but never updates on withdrawals. And for Challengers it is almost impossible to find entry lists. So the individiual sites are NOT sufficient these days.

If this section shuts down many tennisfans will get very dissapointed. It will be almost impossible to track who will play where etc.

Steve, please keep this section up, it´s what makes this forum so great. I´m so dissapointed that ATP even bother to make this an issue
:( :(
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Postby Super-Fabio » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:13 pm

( :(

this situation was happened already on wtaworld.com......maybe we can open a section called "Entry Commitments"...where we open threads with the various commitment and the names from the official web sites....and when the lists are out, me and Fee, Jay we can write the updates and we can answer if anyone want to know if a player will play in a tournament....this happens nowaday on wtaworld and the wta don't say anything....
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Postby Anco » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:17 pm

Only thing I can do is thank you all for keeping things up to date for such a while! :HeadBang:

I think the ATP doesn't realize that a lot of people are very interested in entry lists and things. :(
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Re: ATP has requested this section be closed

Postby Jelena » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:07 pm

Steve G wrote:Well it seems our run of tournament entries on this site may soon come to an end. :( Can't say we haven't had a nice long go of it. :HeadBang:

The ATP has requested that this section of the forum be shut down. What they are saying is the entry lists are not public until released by the tournaments.

I know this is one of the most popular sections on the forums. Are the individual tournament sites sufficient these days for entry info? Any thoughts, suggestions?

To answer the question: NOOOOOOOO they aren't!!!!!!!!!! :rant:
I hope you find a solution though. Thank you very much for the work to make it the best section of the forum.
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Postby decrepitude » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:11 pm

I, and many others, will be devastated if this section closes. It will take forever to open all the individual tournament sites, and most of them are completely hopeless anyway. Even some ATP events, not just Challengers, have websites that are unhelpful to say the least, and they are SO late publishing the draws - many of them don't seem to bother publishing entry lists and certainly don't update them with withdrawals.

I wonder if the ATP also realise that it will be just about impossible for people to continue with Fantasy Tennis? You cannot pick your players if you don't know who is playing - and say this weekend, where the entry closes on Sunday, people who are away for the weekend will be right up the creek if they can't get information before the weekend.
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Postby jirobkk » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:00 pm

:BlueCrying: :BlueCrying: :BlueCrying: :BlueCrying:
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Postby » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:33 am

that's terrible news, i always use this for jd's stock market game.
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Postby bunny » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:24 am

:(
Noooo!
I don't understand what harm this section can cause to the ATP and the tournaments. If anything, this section can only benefit them because people who have seen their favourite players have entered a certain tournamnt may plan to attend the event (being fully aware that the player may withdraw later.)
And some tournament Web sites are so slow and unreliable in updating themselves. Well, they may want to hold some information to themselves until the last minute, such as withdrawal of a star player, but that's unfair to fans and spectators.

Isn't there any way to negotiate with the ATP to find a solution that both parties can be happy with, such as releasing the entry information in time for the weekly deadline of FT tennis?

I've been really grateful to all the peers on this board, such as Super Fabio, Jay, smucav, Steve, for all the precious information and would be devastated if the section is closed! :Dejected:
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Postby emilie85 » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:33 am

Please keep this section!!!!
Do you want us to start a petition?
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Postby Elina » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:43 am

I'm devastated if this part of the forum will be closed. :( :( :(

The info here is something you can't get anywhere else on internet... As you have said most of the tournament websites are hopeless in having up-to-date info available...

I hope you can find a way to keep this running. :HeadBang:
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Postby EddieV » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:03 am

:(

ITF does a better job with the entry lists than ATP. It's a shame.
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Postby titopazo » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:06 pm

Can ATP shut down this forum? Are they able to do it?

Sorry for my english
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Postby Fee » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:03 pm

This is absolute BS, on many levels.

First, if you add the combined memberships of MTF, Steve G forum and the Tennis Warehouse forum (half of whom can't even find the Steve G Forum), then add one percent for the lurkers who don't sign up at any of those boards, you probably have fewer than 200 people who will be attending a tournament in any given week. Those 200 people are not going to affect ticket sales or attendence figures.

Second, when big names pull out of events, it usually hits the press or the player's website before it gets posted on MTF or here. The ATP doesn't always update those entry lists on a regular basis anyway. The largest number of updates come late Thursday and early Friday, sometimes the same day the draws are done, and are usually too late for people to change their travel arrangements anyway.

Third, posting the entry lists benefits the players on the Alternate lists more than it harms the tournaments. Those players have fans, and those fans like to follow their progress even if they are not actually at the tournament. When we know if some of our favorite lower ranked players DID NOT get into the draw, then the hardcore fans are more likely to pay attention to the qualifying rounds and perhaps even show up to watch them.

Fourth, posting the entry lists benefits the Challengers and Futures events. Not all of them have good websites and they have benefitted from having Steve G/MTF posts their lists for them. Again, this is good for the fans of the lower ranked players who want to follow their scores or know where they are playing in any given week.

Fifth, based solely on the conversations that I have heard around me at every tournament I've ever been to (and this is not scientific by any means), most of the people who spend big money to go to tournaments don't seem to follow it religiously on the internet anyway (or at least not on tennis forums). I've lost track of the misinformation I've heard spoken around me, the number of people who seem to pay attention to tennis only the week before the tournament they are attending, and the ones who ask if Agassi is in the draw or when the women's matches will be.

My completely unscientific opinion is that posting those entry lists helps the business of tennis FAR MORE than it hurts, and the ATP should just leave it the heck alone and concentrate on more important things.

{My apologies to those of you who will see this post again at 'other locations'. }
Last edited by Fee on Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Morgan Z » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:45 pm

Oh no, this is disgusting.

I, like many others, signed up to the forum mainly because of the entry lists. This section is an asset to the tennis world and it'll be an irreplaceable loss.


Can the ATP force you to shut this down, Steve?
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Postby Nathaliia » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:54 pm

Can anybody tell them in a very subtle way that they are lunatic big time?

They are really so stupid that don't understand what is going on, or they are only joking :?
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Postby Jelena » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:29 am

Fee wrote:This is absolute BS, on many levels.

...

Third, posting the entry lists benefits the players on the Alternate lists more than it harms the tournaments. Those players have fans, and those fans like to follow their progress even if they are not actually at the tournament. When we know if some of our favorite lower ranked players DID NOT get into the draw, then the hardcore fans are more likely to pay attention to the qualifying rounds and perhaps even show up to watch them.

Fourth, posting the entry lists benefits the Challengers and Futures events. Not all of them have good websites and they have benefitted from having Steve G/MTF posts their lists for them. Again, this is good for the fans of the lower ranked players who want to follow their scores or know where they are playing in any given week.

...


I have to agree with those two points. Players who are on alternate lists are mostly on all alternate lists and wait in which tournament they will come in. And their fans (and as Fee says they have many) are waiting themselves to see if they maybe have a chance to see them.

On the other hand I attended in the last years at least two tournaments because ONE player showed up at the tournament. (Two different players at the two tournaments, but only one player per tournament.) And I know that I wouldn't have gone to those tournaments, if I hadn't known that those players are playing this tournament. So the tournaments benefitted (in a small amount I admit, but they benefitted) of this site. I also know some hardcore fans who decide by the tournament entry lists to which tournament they go. And they go from Germany, where they live, also to France or even Italy depending on the Entries of the tournies.

These are my two cents...
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Postby tasmanian tiger » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:51 am

this is terrible news. why would the atp want to discourage atp tennis fanatics from following the entry lists? i (i'm sure futily) sent an email to atp.com requesting them to reconcider. but i certainly would like to thank fabio, smacav, patrik, fee, steveg and eveyone else that contributed to this forum. just a question if anyone feels like disclosing this info........... what are the concerns of the atp with fans having the info that this forum provided????
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Postby Rosie » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:51 am

I can only reiterate what so many people here have said before. I am really upset and angered by this decision, which seems to be detrimental to tennis fans. So many of us work full time, and have a very limited amount of time to watch tennis live, and our annual leave has to be booked some time in advance for business purposes. Stands to reason, fans want to see their own particular favourites play if they only have a couple of opportunities a year to do so, and at least publishing entry lists here gave those people some notice for booking travel, accomodation etc. It particularly hits the Challengers, the smaller tournaments and the fans of the lower ranked players, and yet again seems to prove that Mr. de Villiers and his ATP care next to nothing about anything or anyone outside the Top 10. I hope something can be done to keep this service going for the real fans of tennis. Thanks to all those who have done so much here in the past.

As for your question about whether the Tournament Sites are sufficient for Entry information......... well they SHOULD be if updated correctly, but the fact is, regular visitors here usually know about withdrawals weeks before they are announced on the tournament websites. And I must say, the cynical part of me says that is almost certainly because the tournament directors "withhold" withdrawal information until the last minute just to keep people buying tickets, especially with regard to a "top" player who may be that tournament's biggest "drawcard". So in many ways they are making money under false pretences, and by refusng you the right to publish the "truth" here, the ATP would seem to be backing them up in their subterfuge in my opinion.

And one final comment/question. Unless this site is affiliated to or owned by the ATP - has the ATP actually any legal right to stop you publishing? The lists are not exactly covered by the Official Secrets' Act are they? Any player/coach/official, or friend of any of these, can get it without too much trouble, and I feel that without a respected site like yours publishing it in a decent format, it will soon start to get out anyway but in less respected sites and places.
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Postby m-j-d » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:20 pm

How shortsighted can those in charge at the ATP get? :KooKoo:
We all know how difficult it is to get info from most tournement website don't we?

What next - No-one allowed to publish any results until the ATP has done so, which is usually 12 - 24 hours after the matches finish! :o
Will the press also be banned from publishing names of players withdrawing etc?

Why do they wish to stifle the interest of true tennis fans and to which players have entered into what tournament? :S

I have never heard of such rubbish - I must have been mistaken, as I thought they wanted to improve the image of tennis. :roll:
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Postby Svenskpor » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:06 pm

Terrible decision by the ATP - its very shortsighted to hide the entry lists to try to dupe people into buying tickets to see a player who has already pulled out. This is just likely to get the person angry and make them not come back next year.
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Postby pggtips2 » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:26 pm

I really don't understand their views at all, its only sad stattos like me who even bother to look at these sites, the site is hardly going to influence the joe bloggs of this world from attending tournaments. Most people who attend tournaments, will go irrespective of whether some player is participating or not. I myself attend Futures events, not because I expect Federer to be there, but because I like Tennis.

If the ATP don't understand Tennis' fans thirst for stats/info then its only their fault and their decisions are likely to disuade people from getting into the sport. More fool them!

As I would understand the politics here, it seems little more than some officer on an ego trip, when his/her energies should be better spent trying to promote Nadal and Djokovic become the next great rivalry.
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Postby TenArg » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:45 pm

Besides I agree 100% percent with my fellows fans in this forum, I have to ask one question:
If ATP wants the entry list to be secret to ticket purchasers, isn't that a fraud?
I mean, here is an example: I'm a big fan of Agustin Calleri so I decided to travel 1000 km (600 miles) to Buenos Aires and watch him play. But Agustin got the flue and he announced ATP the previous Tuesday that he won't play the event. But I don't get that info until saturday, when I have my plane tickets and my event tickets bought.
What????????
1- IT'S FRAUD
2- Doesn't know ATP geniuses that an angry customer is not going to buy a ticket for the next events (there or somewhere else) and is going to talk to a lot of people how bad was that he didn't get the info at time?
In the other hand, a well-informed customer will take that info as an add value of the product 'ATP event'. He might not buy this year but will certainly attend the tournament the next year.

A satisfied client get you 7 more sales. An unsatisfied one, makes you loose 49 sales (Business Administration 1.0)

Please ATP guys, remember you are selling a product. Don't get burocratic just for the pleasure of prohibit non ATP people to add their effort to this wonderful sport. Specially us, tennis hardcore fans.

Suggestion: not my favorite of course, but if there's not other, encourage ATP to do this forum's work by themselves (with the same dedication that Super Fabio and others have).
My favorite one: just utopia, ATP and non ATP fans working together for a better profesional tennis. And I want to remark profesional because if this is a business then customer is always right. Don't forget that.
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Postby buddyholly » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:52 pm

I'm shocked. Maybe they want to close it down because they are embarrassed at being shown how incompetent they are.

Is there any way we can let them know how bad this makes them look? I suppose an email would probably go unread by anyone there.
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Postby shtexas » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:35 am

If the atp site and/or the tournament sites did their jobs properly, there would be no need for this section to exist here. But, they don't. They are slow. They are late. They are not accurate. Therefore, this section is very important to tennis fans.
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Re: ATP has requested this section be closed

Postby zekozecic » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:33 am

The problem is as follows: has the ATP made this request AND THREATHENED A LAWSUIT, for example, or just kindly ask for it? In this second case, well, I would say: sorry, we go on with this.
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Postby manosquin » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:45 am

je ne comprend pas cette décision de fermer ce forum sur les Entry List ?

en quoi cela gène l'ATP ? si ce n'est que l'ATP ne fait pas son boulot en publiant ces listes. Tout fan de tennis a besoin de savoir à l'avance où ses joueurs préférés joueront.

Quelque part c'est de la CENSURE de la part de l'ATP qui souhaite tout controler. Ils veulent empêcher que des infos importantes soient diffusés.

C'est véritablement HONTEUX de leur part de vouloir fermer ce sujet du forum

Si c'est le cas, à partir de quand sera t-il fermé ? D'ores-et-déjà ? ou dans les semaines qui viennent ?
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Postby Jelena » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:19 am

pggtips2 wrote:I really don't understand their views at all, its only sad stattos like me who even bother to look at these sites, the site is hardly going to influence the joe bloggs of this world from attending tournaments. Most people who attend tournaments, will go irrespective of whether some player is participating or not. I myself attend Futures events, not because I expect Federer to be there, but because I like Tennis.

If the ATP don't understand Tennis' fans thirst for stats/info then its only their fault and their decisions are likely to disuade people from getting into the sport. More fool them!

As I would understand the politics here, it seems little more than some officer on an ego trip, when his/her energies should be better spent trying to promote Nadal and Djokovic become the next great rivalry.

As far as I understand this thread's title ATP doesn't want the SITE to be closed, but the SECTION with the tournament entries. The site with its retrospective/present features can stay open, but the FUTURE feature Tournament Entries of tournaments that are still to happen is closed (as you can see, because there are no updates anymore). That doesn't change my opinion that the Tournament Entries are an important feature for fans who want to follow the player who might be on Alternate Lists and for fans who plan to support a player at a tournament. That's why I :roll: about this request of ATP to say the least.
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Postby ovg » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:22 am

I am just back from the Masters Series event in Cincinnati and hadn't been on line for days! To reinforce what everyone is saying: I made a special plans to also attend the qualifying weekend to see a particular player. I had a good idea that he might be there because of his position as a "next" on the fantastic updated lists that I read here. I was attending the tournament whether or not Nadal, Fed, etc. were there, but they got a couple of extra days (and many extra dollars) out of me because of the entry lists posted here.
Really, I don't understand what legal basis the ATP has to stop the publishing. I'm sure players share the lists with family, friends and business associates all the time anyway - so what the problem could be with sharing the lists with a few hundred of intelligent, dedicated fans could be, I just can't figure out.
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Postby daryl » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:59 am

First of all, i agree with everyone that supports this section.
Steve, can you elaborate on the legal consequences of keeping this section up? did they told you anything about that?
I dont know how much it costs you to run the site, but maybe we can figure out a way to host the site in some of that countries that have no law against these things...
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Postby m-j-d » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:31 pm

If the ATP is determined to turn itself into a 'secret society' what are the possibilities and legal implications of forming an 'SGT secret society', where registered members receive automated confidential email info of forthcoming events?
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Postby RobbieC » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:10 am

Just to add my support: please keep this section open, or move it to another forum.

Steve, Fabio, R. Jayakrishnan: Can we have some feedback please: what have the ATP threatened you with? Can they harm you if the forum goes "underground"?
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Postby Elikian » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:16 am

:Dejected:

Can't say I'm shocked at the ATP for doing this. They have been shutting down parts of Steve's incredible work for a while. I remember that they wanted the Factsheets removed some time ago as well. But these are back now. Hopefully this will be the same?
Steve actually got quite some support from lower level events as well, with their press agencies sending him these sheets, results and stuff as well if I recall correctly.

I can add that I am really disapppointed in losing this info. As so many have said before me, it is invaluable information if you are interested in players like Olivier Patience, Ivo Klec and Vasilis Mazarakis or anyone not top 100. The players where the ATP does't boast with on their sites. But they their have fans here. Any information on challengers is incredibly important. The people who visit this site are not the Federer and Nadal fans, we are the fans who care about the sport, like Patrick (pggtips) said above me: we visit future events just because we like tennis.

Some said that for the players who are in all the alt lists this is important. Maybe that is not true, because they have the ATP access, but for their fans it is. See TenArg's story.

Also this information is indeed very valuable if you are an interested participant in the 'Fantasy tennis' games. Both by the ATP and numerous others all over the web :)

I think they ATP do have a legal point as they think we are 'leaking' their classified information. I dont agree with the leaking, but I think that's the ATP's stance. The people who do have the access should know if their is some sort of info there on the 'classified' status of that information. Maybe the ATP should ask the players if they care that the info is disclosed. I think it's time I will call Jacco Eltingh again ;)

----

If there is gonna be some sort of Petition I will most certainly be part of it. It shows a) that the community that 'leaks' this information is rather small, and b) it shows that the tennisfans care for more than Roger and Rafa. There is a reason this part of the site is so popular!

If it does shut down ... let me take this oppurtunity to thank Fabio, Ray, Smucav, Patatriek, Steve and all the others who have been giving us this info in their spare time.
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Let's bugger the ATP

Postby Rob & Stephen » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:48 am

:shocked:
Ain't it just typical of the idiots at the ATP to do this. :KooKoo:
Once more they don't seem to be listening to the people that they should - i.e. us the fans who sit and pour our hearts and minds into the sport, and not just the "jolly one (or two) week" brigaders. :roll:
I remember Etienne Devilliers saying that no actions of his administration would be to the detriment of the fans, but he seems to be turning into as much of a joke as George W Bush and Tony Blair. :S
This is supposed to be the administrators of a worldwide sport giving out info to the fans like us. Could you imagine the uproar if say FIFA, the PGA Tour, the NBA or similiar organisations did this. ;) But as usual tennis fans are seen as daft and info-less wanting people, probably seen as like all thiose fabulous Trekkies out there. (ACTUALLY YOU'D BE SURPRISED AT THE AMOUNT OF TENNIS FANS AT A RECENT TOURNAMENT I WAS AT WITH TREKKIE BADGES - THEN AGAIN MAYBE NOT - WE'RE ALL FANATICS AT HEART. )
Anyway as far as I understand the legal situation - there is no legal precident in the UK - I'm not sure of US laws - for this type of ban. Maybe Steve should come and live over here. :lol: The only things that can be banned here are the usual suspects, and the only way the ATP could get around this ban is by saying that it would be to the detriment of their business and or sales if these lists became known to a wider public audience.
Then again, I wouldn't put it past the ATP to try this. :roll:
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Postby guest1 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:19 am

@steve

did the atp tell you when the section has to be closed? is there a certain date when you have to close it?
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Help from players

Postby zekozecic » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:24 am

I think it would be useful to get support from players, especially from top players. For example, I know that Ljubicic has always been close to the fans and not always in good terms with the ATP chairman. It would be good to contact him, as soon as possible, if he goes on playing as he has done this year he might disappear from the scene :( even before this section of the forum does
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Postby Shhh » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:41 pm

I can only echo everyones disgust listed above. Why is tennis so hard to be a fan of?

If the section has to close, can it be set up on a unique site address somewhere else, away from Steve's site. It could maybe be linked to from SteveG, the ATP cannot hold steve responsible for outside sites.....it just needs to become one!
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Postby Steve G » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:31 am

As far as legalities, I'm note sure. It seemed more as a "request" for now. I'm just not sure if I want to push it and find out. But, trust me, if there is a need for entry lists, you will all be able to get them one way or another. ;) ;)

Stay tuned...
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Postby tasmanian tiger » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:55 am

i think what the atp would likely threaten is disciplinary action against the players that have given u guys access to their accounts, but if they have not even threatened this yet, i'd continue with the lists until they do. i would think the atp would give another warning telling u what the ramifications would be (for keeping the lists going) before they take action against anyone.
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Postby decrepitude » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:57 am

Just another example of why this forum is so important and why the tournament websites are inadequate.

Monfils' withdrawal was posted here yesterday. I checked the USOpen website this morning - not only is there no mention of this in the "news" section, but when you click on "Players" list, all you get is the top 20!

I have news for them - out of 128 players, only some of the qualifiers are as yet unknown. Do they think nobody is interested in anybody outside the top 20? :roll:
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